"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?"-Luke 15:4
I just read the following statement on a Blog: “We are never instructed to chase the ‘Back-slider’ - they know better!”.
Has Christianity has lost its message of true Grace ... Grace for the least deserving?
Where has the ‘Parable of the Lost Sheep’ gone? … I cannot remember the last time I heard that message preached.
Has it been lost itself and replaced by the seven sins that inhibit your self-improvement, Leadership and your Prosperity - “negativity, regret, complacency..." etc?.
Like the term “Tithe”, “Backslider” is not used in the orthodox denomination I grew up exposed to – until I started mixing with more 'progressive' groups.
And why is it that diligence in faithfully proclaiming the heart of the Gospel message and financial transparency always found in the same places?…
Where is the heart and the compassion for the ‘Backslider’ anyway ... ? The one who has been ‘Lost’ … often at the care of the high-living, fast-talking Shepherds??
It is eveident that the Good Shepherd has the time and will walk the extra mile to find that one lost Sheep. It is of the greatest value to him.
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep".
The message I hear loud and clear from the Pentecostal and Contemporary Churches is:
“Be one of my 99 compliant, low-maintenance, Sheep - or I won’t waste my time with you!”.
There is a ray of hope:
"GOD, the Master, says: From now on, I myself am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. 12As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll rescue them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. 13I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. 14I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. 15And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. 16I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.
".
Please Come Back, Good Shepherd and Saviour of my Childhood!.
18 comments:
Lionfish,
you are a treasure to those who dare to question, who refuse the answers they are given and are determined to be authentic even when confronted with their own grace forgiven duplicity.
Grace.. the secret message of Christ that undoes all our religious hyperventelations... is that how it is spelt?
wow.. just called that number and i feel great. don't know if it was the call or the 5 beers but i feel great...
lionfish... have been on a bit of a blog break last few days and have been getting myself up to speed on the conversations again... man you are a machine... don't stop mind you but take the family to the park or a movie in the next few days for me will you.
btw you must look at this
http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/google_is_god.html#comment-16928044
abTruth - That is Brilliant!.
We can all now understand as to why your heart fely plea on one certain Blog seemed to fall on deaf ears can't we!
Maybe Pastors get sick of people who should know better, who have been told the truth a hundred times. God got sick and tired of His people, the people He loved.
Maybe some Pastors are sick of pandering to Christians who want to keep getting fed milk.
Maybe some Pastors are sick of people who dont support the ministry of the church, dont attend regularly, dont serve, dont appear to care about the church. Yet these same people are quite happy to bleat from the margins, especially when they feel they are not getting enough grass and pats on the head from the kind shepherd.
Pastors are not perfect, and mess up, but they need our support and encouragement. They need people who are willing to be committed and work together for the real lost sheep, those who dont know the great shepherd at all.
Hi Mark,
Because you have missed my point entirely – perhaps I can rest my case!. :-)
As one who has paid his money and packed his bags to attend Hillsong 2006 with all of the other sycophants fawning over the WOF “Veryimportantbigpreachers” and their prosperity teaching- As a Pastor shouldn’t you know better and couldn’t you do something better with your money and time yourself? :-)
http://marked35.blogspot.com/2006/01/im-going-to-hillsong-2006.html
Mark, Yes Pastors are human. Yes they “mess-up”… you may get sick of people “not supporting the Ministry” … but the end does not justify the means.
For all Pastors (including yourself) sustained unconscionable conduct regarding teaching, lack of accountability, lack of financial transparency (especially when they are becoming very wealthy themselves through the backdoor of the ear-tickling ‘speaking circuit’) – especially when people have gone through the right channels to ask honest questions and have been ‘stonewalled’ and many people are being spiritually and financially abused.
The point of my post is that I have come to appreciate the Pastor who visits the sick
These are questions I would like to ask of you:
My questions are whilst the music is great, people are great and dress pretty cool, church is ‘entertaining’ in these Churches
A) "how can we trust spiritual leaders with teaching about things of eternal importance - if we cannot trust them to teach us properly about things of earthly importance such as money".
B) “Why is their so much secrecy surrounding how the Contemporary Church Business model works – ie. the lucrative speaking circuit. Why are the Books not open?
C) “why do these guys leverage incorporations law for tax gain – yet do not comply with law by having an annual AGM or providing financials.
D) Why do Pastors such as yourself stay silent on these matters – are people are afraid to publicly speak out?
It is because I do know better we have been asking questions and speaking out! Maybe as I had a Luthern upbringing – its in my spiritual DNA!
And finally don’t be too smug about our involvement (or apparent lack of) in ministry mate. You have no idea what we are involved in … and secondly you may end up in the same place.
The ‘Good Shepherd’ may not only give us a ‘pat on the head’ – but he may overturn the tables of the money changers at the Hillsong conference you are attending.
Peace! :-)
Let me firstly say that I enjoy the interaction, up to a point. And was not going to say anything, but then thought of a few friends of mine who started off in the ministry with pure dreams and desires, only to be lied at, gossipped about and run out or ministry by 'well intentioned dragons'. This is personally painful for me, and so I support ministers wherever I can in all good conscience do so. I respect the person who leads, because he/she is trying, even if they are not perfect, at least they are having a go.
Am I meant to be ashamed of going to the Hillsong Conference?
I'm not. If I was I would not have put it on my blog. Its a great refreshing time, which I pay for out of my own money, because the church I pastor at couldn't afford to send me, and I wouldn't ask them to anyway.
There is no doubt Hillsong Church have some issues. So what? We all do.
I don't think I have missed your point at all, I think you have missed mine.
My post was meant to say that it is very easy to pick on Pastors, they are easy targets. It is far harder to be one.
Also, I dont think I made one personal comment about your ministry, or lack of it. I have no idea who you are or what ministry you are involved in. On my blog is listed my name, and my church, you dont get much more open and accountable.
Hi Mark,
1) Of course you miss my point. I have great respect for Pastors who serve as I pointed out
“Pastors were clearly devoted, uncharismatic but authentic clergy men who lived on meagre incomes and taught from the Scriptures with diligence and integrity.
…Who would I go to for spiritual direction … the Jetset Fast-Talking Pastor who has tax-effective ministries accounts, who does not declare his income to the congregation, has corporate expense accounts and makes a ‘bloody good living’ from the sheep - many of whom earn a fraction of his income … or the local Catholic Priest, the Nuns who live three doors down and work with the refugess or the local /lutheran/anglican/unting church Pastor who earns $52K and spend their time visiting the sick, counseling the congregation etc”.
I have made this point many times.
You can read the full post here: http://www.hismethod.com/blog/?p=529#comments.
2) You say “There is no doubt Hillsong Church have some issues. So what? We all do.”
That is the typical ‘let’s just overlook a few little misgivings of this nice Church’ response that I have received from the Church since I went from a ‘low maintenance’ regularly attending, serving, financially supporting member of the congregation to ‘back-slider’ after the God’s Millionaires article and others came out in the secular media. (Don’t you love that term as it implies all of the problems lie with the person who has left the Church…)
After observing that the Churches responses to this and all other media attention has been nothing less than ‘cultish’ (let’s ignore it – everyone will forget about it / the media are now evil). Apparently, the politicians, the media, and the aboriginal community are also all evil forces using these poor Churches as ‘scape goats in a political game’. Especially after – not one but three grants have been stripped, grants which the Church was champing at the bit to receive from these so-called ‘conspiring forces’.
I have asked questions regarding contradictions in media statements, met with Senior Pastors who respond with nothing but charming ‘spin & rhetoric’, refuse to provide answers to questions regarding authenticity, financial transparency, accountability and orthodox teaching – or explain why Senior Ministers who have gone to great lengths to cover up earlier media direct quotations they had made in the past. I have requested financials from the Church that I was attending (connected to HS) to make sure that everything was above board and get my head around how the ‘Business Model’ worked. Despite being told that the ‘books are open’
I have never received any financial statements – and the Senior Minister now refuses to meet with me over a coffee to answer my questions…even though ‘it is the right thing, and the Biblical thing to do”. My invitation is still open to that Senior Minister to contact me to meet with at any time to discuss these issues.
These issues are not simply “the Pastor said something I did not like…” kind of issues that you are used to in your Ministry. As ‘Dogfight’ points out they extend to a deceitful ‘networked’ Business model that extends across the globe. Nothing I have encountered over several months of looking into this tells me otherwise…
No accountability, dodgy property deals and buying spress, deceptive teaching and practices on tithing / fund raising…let me tell you after 4 years experience in one of these Churches, I have never come across anything more deceitful when I have looked ‘underneath the bonnet’ to understand how the Business Model works.
Dogfight explains it well here: http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/google_is_god.html#comment-16928044
These are not ‘little, issues’, Mark – they are issues of adequate importance for the media, the politicians and many, many people to pay attention to and do something about.
Perhaps in your view, Luther should have of kept quiet
I will ask you once again, as you like many of the other Contemporary Church Leaders avoid these ‘little questions’:
A) "how can we trust spiritual leaders with teaching about things of eternal importance - if we cannot trust them to teach us properly about things of earthly importance such as money".
B) “Why is their so much secrecy surrounding how the Contemporary Church Business model works – ie. the lucrative speaking circuit. Why are the Books not open?
C) “why do these guys leverage incorporations law for tax gain – yet do not comply with law by having an annual AGM or providing financials.
D) Why do Pastors such as yourself stay silent on these matters – are people are afraid to publicly speak out?
3) I have no idea who you are or what ministry you are involved in. On my blog is listed my name, and my church, you don’t get much more open and accountable.
In your view, I am a “backslider” Mark. Which means I do not attend Church regularly or serve in s structured ministry or give any more of my hard earned $$$ to the Church … as I have now seen where it ends up.
At present, I am taking time to detox from Church … though I have not given up hope. There are plenty of small
And I have never withheld information from those who have enquired so if you want to know who I am please feel free to email me, to date I have always provided my name and any other details to those who have asked.
Clan.mackenzie@bigpond.com
If you have the gumption then feel free to email me – and we will meet to discuss face to face. That is something, it seems, that some Senior Ministers do not have the courage and character to do.
A. I dont think you should trust any teacher automatically, be a Beran, which I am sure you are
B. I agree that there needs to be more openness here, and wonder about this myself
C. I know Peter Costello has personally questioned the fbt tax exemptions of, and I hate to say it, AOG pastors in particular, who some of which are in my opinion taking advantage of it. If they keep it up, all of us will lose the privilege.
D. I can speak out all I want, and do in private in appropriate places. I do not think it is my place to publicly criticise other pastors, there are enough bitter people doing that already (I am not suggesting you are one of them)
I think its a bit rich to state what my view on you is! Until I read what you have written, I knew very little about you. Based on some of your devotional thoughts, the idea of you being backslider was furtherest from my thoughts.
I sincerly hope you continue to grow and be blessed, and thank you for veing vulnerable and sharing some of your story, it gives context to some of your statements.
Mark
To say Hillsong has some issues and say "so what?" geez....Paul thought Corinthians had some issues too, except he expected they'd face up to it and change rather than say ,"well no church is perfect"....some things you can let go but other things you can't.
The mass exodus from people out of the church might not be happening if the lost sheep were followed up. Where the church, or pastors, don't give a toss is where they will never know the reason why.
Hi Garth,
I hope Lionfish does not mind this conversation on his blog. Sorry if it has been hijacked.
I am not here to defend Hillsong, and I am not Paul, so I am in no real position to tell them off.
I appreciate their conferences and most of the speakers I go to hear, but I am not going to try and defend them. I have enough issues of my own, without taking theirs on board. But I will share what I appreciate about them, and I think that is fair enough.
Whenever people leave my church, or have not been coming for a while we have a pastoral team in place, and I always try to do an 'exit interview'. This is not to justify myself or say I am good.
Is it your personal experience that other churches do not do something similar?
One thing I will suggest is this. Some of these bigger church leaders (of which I am not one) have terrible pastoral skills, but other skills which are great. Along Paul's lines of 'body life' I think it is important they have a pastoral team in place, even if they themselves dont get that involved in it. People need to be cared for pastorally.
I also acknowledge freely this, the key reason people leave churches is because of the pastor. That hurts me and sobers me up whenever I am getting ahead of myself.
"the key reason people leave churches is because of the pastor".
Not for me.
The lack of transparency, inability to get 'real honest' answers, and finding out about the "unjustifiable amounts of money" flowing around the speaking circuit ... coupled with conscience and conviction led me to move on.
I don't want to be made merchandise of.
Fair enough,
blessings to all.
not necessarily a reference to you mark as i don't know you but..
i am really looking forward to the day that a cashed up 'pastor' stands up and says "gee.. i was wrong. i led you astray. from now on i will not put the party line first but will preach on the fact that Gods grace is sufficient" and then acts by giving up ill gotten gains and looks after the widow orphan and the poor...
i think i'll be waiting a long time...
That's what people having been hoping for, as well as a committment to change.
As we say to ourt kids - its no good saying sorry, or I was wrong unless you learn and grow from your errors.
Lionfish - great post.
nilmot said...
"Where has the ‘Parable of the Lost Sheep’ gone?"
Indeed! What happened to the teachings of Jesus? The sermon on the mount, the first shall be last, all that stuff about taking up one's cross, blessed are the poor and humble.
It seems it has taken a back seat to the gospel of success and excellence."
Couldn't agree more - well said.
Hey Mark, re: exit interview - I just wanted to say that I think that's really cool. I wish more churches did that. I left a real big penty church just as I was to enter into a leadership position...I was there one day, vanished the next. Months later I was bumping into people from my old church, and they all said "oh yeah, we heard you were going somewhere else". Nobody ever asked me why.
Now, you could turn around and say, "well, did you try to share your grievances?" The answer is yes, I did. I said to some of these people that it would be nice if they wanted to listen to why I left. None of them took me up on that suggestion.
People get burnt by churches - but they get even more burnt when the churches they're leaving don't seem to give a s***, no matter how much they've contributed to the community over the years.
So - I'm very impressed that you do that.
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